NB: This transcript has been edited slightly for publishing purposes. You can listen to the full episode here.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Lawyers Weekly Show. I’m Jerome Doraisamy. Today I’m joined by three representatives of the Disabled Australian Lawyers Association. We’re going to be talking about issues impacting persons with disabilities in the law across the country, and particularly in the age of coronavirus, some of the issues that have been faced, and how best the profession can be better supporting persons with disabilities who are in our workplaces. First of all, we have Natalie Wade, who is the principal of Equality Lawyers. She’s based in Adelaide. Natalie, welcome to the show.

Natalie Wade:

Thanks very much for having us.

Jerome Doraisamy:

We also have Ella Alexander, who is a special counsel at Makinson d’Apice Lawyers. Ella, hello.

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Ella Alexander:

Hi, hi, Jerome. Thanks so much for having us.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Oh, you’re most welcome. Ella’s based in Sydney. And finally, we have Abbey Dalton, who is based in Melbourne, and she is a graduate at the Victorian Government Solicitor’s Office. Hello, Abbey.

Abbey Dalton:

Hi, Jerome. Thanks for having us.

Jerome Doraisamy:

First of all, I’m keen to hear a bit about the Disabled Australian Lawyers Association, or DALA, as we were referring to it off air just now. Natalie, could you tell me a little bit about what DALA is, the work that it does, and why you do the work you do? What are some of the sort of major issues that DALA is looking to address?

Natalie Wade:

Great. Ella, Abbey, and I founded the Disabled Australian Lawyers Association in March this year. So I think snaps for us for doing something a little bit innovative during a pandemic, and not really the most impressive time to do something new. But we were certainly and keenly aware of the need to provide a space of representation for people with disabilities who are practising law or are maybe involved in the legal industry to have a line of sight to what it is like to be a disabled lawyer, and what people could expect that to involve. So really, DALA is a membership-based association that invites members that have disabilities that are in the legal profession to come forward and be part of actively advocating for issues that affect people with disabilities in the legal industry.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Okay. Ella, I’m curious to know if we have a sense of exactly how many persons in the legal profession are currently living with disabilities, and I ask this with the knowledge that, as a legal affairs journalist who is trying to keep an ear to the ground for all the different statistics and demographics that make up the Australian legal profession, this is something I should know. But in any event, do we know how many lawyers or legal professionals in Australia are currently living with disabilities?

Ella Alexander:

I think that’s a really good question, Jerome. I think it cuts to the heart of the issue here, which is that there really isn’t much visibility of how many of us practising law do also have disabilities. Certainly, the most recent national profile of solicitors that was released this year, I think, was silent on the issue of disability, and certainly having spoken to a number of law societies and law firms and other organisations, it seems to be something that we really aren’t capturing data for.

I think we’re hoping with DALA to raise this as an issue that we need to have more visibility of, given that one in five Australians has a disability and it’s not really something we’re speaking about in the legal profession. I think it’s time for that to change and I think circumstances are right, given the great reception we’ve had with DALA.

That said, I contacted the Law Society of NSW recently, because I know that when we complete our practising certificate renewals, there is a questionnaire that we can fill out that asks about disability. The response was that about 6 per cent of respondents identified as having a disability. So obviously there’s a disparity there between the percentage of practitioners with a disability at 6 per cent and what we know to be the percentage of Australians living with disability, which is 20 per cent.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Abby, when we talk about disabilities, for those in the law, what are we referring to? Is there a list, for lack of a better term, of all the different disabilities that DALA will be looking to I suppose address or better support people living with those disabilities?

Abbey Dalton:

I think DALA is fairly open with our membership and anyone who identifies as disabled is welcomed into our association and welcomed into our networking space. I think it’s really important to recognise that not everyone has a formal diagnosis and not everyone is comfortable identifying as disabled in the legal profession because of the ongoing silence and stigma that potentially still exists. We’re really conscious not to gatekeep in relation to our membership and essentially if you identify as disabled, if you experience social, environmental, attitudinal barriers in the workplace as a result of any sort of condition, we’re happy to include you in our membership.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Okay. I want to ask about the stigma that you guys were alluding to just before. Natalie, I’m curious about this, because obviously there’s been a huge push in the last decade or so to raise awareness of and try to make people feel comfortable about mental health issues, such as psychological distress, anxiety, depression, suicide ideation, and certainly, some of those ailments might be considered mental disabilities. But it sounds, from what you guys are saying, that other disabilities are being forgotten about in this broader conversation. Why is there a stigma about some of these ailments that you guys are looking to advocate about?

Natalie Wade:

It’s not that it’s been forgotten in the conversation that is happening about mental health in the law, and in fact there is a new and different conversation to be had. So whilst it is absolutely tempting and somewhat intuitive to think about disability by way of diagnosis or medical conditions and classic phrase of, “What’s wrong with you?” I think really what we need to do, and what has absolutely started to happen in the last 10 or 12 years, particularly since Australia ratified the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in law and policy, is that we have seen a shift in the conversation in the broader community to the social model of disability.

And the social model recognises that people with disabilities are prevented from being included in the community and having equal participation by barriers that are in place, both in structures and systems. So really, I think the conversation that needs to happen in the legal profession is one that is starting to happen but should definitely be happening in a much louder volume in the broader community. And what we really want to see is people with disabilities embraced as lawyers, and having a look at what the barriers look like in the profession that prohibit or prevent the active and equal participation of people with disabilities in industry.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Abbey, further to what Natalie was just saying, is there much self-stigma that legal professionals who have disabilities might be facing? I mean, in the same way that many lawyers who suffer from anxiety or depression might have self-stigma and will be reluctant to speak openly about those issues in the workplace. I suppose this goes back to what Ella was just saying before, that there is a disparity between the number of those who identify as having a disability and what we know to be the statistics across the rest of the Australian population.

Abbey Dalton:

I think there’s definitely an element of self-stigma or disabled lawyers and law students and people in the profession more broadly, but I think it’s really important not to fixate too much on the individual and the self-stigma or what we refer to as internalised ableism that they might experience, that might lead them to not speak out so much. I think it’s equally as important, if not more so, to think about those broader structures and systems that don’t create an environment for people to feel comfortable and supported speaking about their disability.

I know I’m quite lucky to be in a workplace where people are very open and comfortable having the conversation about disability, but many lawyers aren’t that lucky. I think if you’re in a workplace where there is silence on disability and you don’t see anyone else with a disability, it can be really difficult and I think those things definitely impact on how an individual interacts and engages with their disability.

Jerome Doraisamy:

You mentioned ableism, Abbey, and I think it would be good to expand a bit on that. Firstly, for those who don’t know, to explain what ableism is, and secondly, to outline why this is such an issue.

Abbey Dalton:

Ableism is the idea that disabled people are inferior by virtue of having a disability, so I guess it’s the equivalent of racism based on someone’s race and sexism based on someone’s sex. Ableism is a result of people being treated differently by virtue of their disability. It’s as much of an issue as racism and sexism are in the workplace, and I think it’s very much a product of systems and structures, as Natalie was speaking about. When we look at the social model of disability, people are disabled by virtue not of their impairment or the condition that they have, but rather because of the social, structural, attitudinal barriers that exist, and that make things more difficult for them because systems and structures aren’t built with them in mind.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Ella, I want to bring you back in here, and further to what Abbey was just detailing there about ableism, and certainly with reference to some of the other issues and challenges that we’ve already alluded to in this conversation, what have been the biggest issues and challenges facing lawyers and law students with disabilities since the onset of COVID-19? Obviously, lawyers across the board have found that they’re day-to-day has been upended, but are there particular challenges or hurdles that those with disabilities have had to face that other lawyers just haven’t?

Ella Alexander:

Yeah, look, I think there’s been both positives and negatives as a result of coronavirus, and there’s much been written and spoken about increased flexibility and openness to I guess working from home and hybrid models of working that wasn’t before. I suppose we’ve had this forced experiment in whether employees can, in fact, perform their jobs from home effectively. So I think that’s a conversation that many practitioners with disabilities, and certainly across other professions as well, have been having with employers for a very long time. In many ways, that’s opened up those kinds of flexible working opportunities and as has been written about, there’s an expectation that these kinds of working styles will continue into the future.

There’s obvious benefits for people with, I guess, conditions that affect mobility or fatigue or other conditions, for which working from home option is helpful. At the same time, I think there’s also additional barriers faced by lawyers with disabilities. For example, accessibility issues with different platforms. There might be perhaps a greater degree of difficulty with adjusting to your routine, so people perhaps who are neurodivergent or have related disabilities, there may also be increased issues around isolation and difficulties with, if perhaps employees have different working styles to non-disabled peers. That said, I think a lot of these conversations around accessibility are applicable both to disabled and non-disabled practitioners.

I think ultimately, what we’re realising as a result of this pandemic, where we’re seeing very much the human side of our colleagues and we’re realising that everyone has different challenges, everyone has different needs, everyone has different working styles. So I think oddly, having these discussions around accessibility is going to benefit the broader profession as well.

Ella Alexander:

Interestingly, there was a study of lawyers in the UK where there were 300 survey responses, lawyers with disabilities, and 60 per cent of those lawyers said that inaccessible working environments and inflexibility limited career opportunities. So that was in, I think that was published in January 2020, and they did a follow-up survey in July, August last year, in the midst of coronavirus, and interestingly, if inflexibility and those kinds of issues were the only barriers to equal participation, you would have expected to see a vast improvement in that respect. But interestingly, there wasn’t any improvement. I think that speaks to the fact that there are broader issues at play.

Also, I think, and during COVID, it might be the case that people with invisible disabilities have had to disclose they have disabilities to their employers for the first time because they’re at risk of COVID. I think that could bring up all kinds of other concerns and anxieties around whether that’s changed their employer’s perceptions of them and whether they’re able to perform their role as they could before.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Yeah. I’m really interested listening to what you were just saying there, Ella, because it sounds as though, yeah, as you noted, there have certainly been many pros and cons for lawyers with disabilities, and in the post-pandemic new normal, I think it would be folly to think that we’re going to have a 100 per cent reversion to what the workplace looked like pre-pandemic. Obviously, there is going to be more flexibility and accommodations for people’s idiosyncratic needs, but simultaneously there will also be new hurdles to overcome. Natalie, in speaking to professionals across the country, as I’m sure you do give your work, do you have a sense from lawyers or legal professionals or law students with disabilities that they’re excited about what the workplace might look like for them moving forward once we’re able to emerge from the pandemic? Or is there trepidation and a fear that things might be even more difficult? Or is it both?

Natalie Wade:

I think it depends on who in the profession you speak to. I think for existing practitioners and legal professionals, it is a great hope that there is an open and frank conversation about flexibility in the workplace. I think we’re seeing systems within the legal profession, particularly courts of large tribunes and places like that becoming amazingly more accessible for both practitioners and clients, which is just really great to see. Though I think that excitement is somewhat tempered by those who are faced with finding jobs at this time. The job market is absolutely, in some respects, squashed by the impacts of the pandemic, and it’s very difficult, I hear, for lawyers, particularly graduates with disabilities, to break into existing firms or legal services, and so the tighter job market, I think, creates more apprehension for those who would otherwise like to be in the profession.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Abbey, is that your experience as well? Or have you been hearing similar things?

Abbey Dalton:

Yeah, I would definitely echo that, that I think for people entering the profession, COVID-19 has definitely created more challenges in relation to the job market, which has diminished significantly. I think another thing is, because there is very limited conversation and representation of disability in the law, employers often face a bit of trepidation when they’re faced with a disabled candidate because it’s something new. It’s something that they probably haven’t experienced before. Even if that disabled candidate is the strongest candidate, there is always a bit of hesitation from the employers because we’re not having those conversations about what disability looks like in the legal profession and how it can be seamlessly accommodated.

So, I think when you add COVID-19 into the mix, employers become a lot more hesitant and risk-averse, and I think potentially that can be detrimental for disabled candidates in the recruitment process, because employers might opt for a safer option, a more predictable option. So I think there is definitely potential for those barriers to be amplified for disabled people. In saying that, I think COVID-19 has definitely provided a lot of benefits for graduates and junior lawyers with disabilities, and they are able to benefit a lot from the increased flexibility around physical spaces, communication methods, all those sorts of things. There’s definitely a lot of positives.

Jerome Doraisamy:

I just have a few more questions for you all, which we’ll get to on the other side of this. I want to move into some of the duties and responsibilities for the profession moving forward. Ella, what’s the role of a leader in a law firm, in an in-house law department, in a government team, or those at university, what’s the role of a leader to ensure that in the new normal that we’re entering that persons with disabilities are, not only as supported as they can be, but also that they’re in a position to really flourish and thrive?

Ella Alexander:

Yeah, sure. I think it’s been a really exciting time in the profession in general when it comes to diversity. We’ve seen a huge amount of discussion around other areas of diversity, and we’re very grateful to those that have come before us who have opened up this conversation. I think it’s really time that we harness some of that momentum and apply it to the disability space. I have to say that a lot of firms are already taking some very positive steps. I know at least one firm has registered a disability inclusion plan with the Australian Human Rights Commission, I guess building on momentum around reconciliation action plans and the like.

There’s also other firms that have less formalised disability and inclusion plans, but certainly firms are fleshing out their disability strategy and I think that’s a really positive step, whether it be through flexible working policies, whether it be through formal adjustment policies. There’s also a lot of firms that are undertaking disability awareness training for their senior leadership. I think that’s really important also to roll out to HR teams. We’re also seeing an increase in targeted positions, so that is positions within legal organisations that are targeted specifically for lawyers with disabilities.

We certainly like to see those kinds of positions in senior roles as well. I think they’re mostly entry-level roles at the moment. I think it’s really important just for employers to realise that, for leaders rather, to realise that disability is a really important part of the diversity conversation and great leadership in the space means actively engaging with the disability community and taking really active steps and affirmative action in the space.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Natalie, what about those who don’t have leadership roles? What about the average lawyer in a firm, in an in-house team? How best should they be adapting their own day-to-day approaches to their colleagues who might have disabilities or perhaps looking to at least raise their levels of awareness and empathy?

Natalie Wade:

Yeah, sure. Being an ally to people with disabilities is absolutely fundamental to creating inclusive and safe spaces, and as you say, that needs to happen at the peer level, in addition to happening at the leadership level. And so for people that are working alongside lawyers with disabilities or legal professionals with disabilities, there’s a couple things that they can do. They can do things that are really obvious, like having some awareness about that person’s disability and the level of engagement that that person wants to have around it. So some people with disabilities would be really happy to talk about it and would want to share their experiences and their stories and what it means to them, and others not so much.

I do think that’s a part of the lack of diversity space, and it’s just sort of being curious without being imposing, I think is really important, and sort of opening that space to have the conversation, if that’s what is needed. I think also being a good bystander is really important, so making sure that if we see something happening in the workplace that is that ableism that Abbey spoke about earlier, calling it out, being a good ally and a good bystander, and not just leaving it to the person with disability to take ownership of that and having to carry that on their own.

I think it’s also really important for peers to have a good understanding and appreciation of what inclusion looks like for their fellow disabled lawyer, and what it should look like. So it may be that there are some accommodations that are being made and that’s good, but there could be more that needs to be done, and so that person may not be fully able to participate in the workplace. I think having peers that are aware of that is really important. In my own life, I use a wheelchair to get around, and so by and large, I can scoot around the community relatively easily. However, there are courtrooms and client meeting spaces where I’m not going to be able to open the door, literally open the door. Or I might not be able to use that space as effectively.

Even though I’m there in the workplace being included and it’s all pretty good, it’s not 100 per cent. And so the support and camaraderie from my peers is ever important to literally open the door. And so I think it’s really great if peers can be supportive and understanding and also aware and good bystanders.

Jerome Doraisamy:

Absolutely. And Abbey, what about for the individuals with the disabilities themselves? Do they have any responsibilities moving forward to, I suppose, better educate their colleagues, their team leaders? Certainly, this question is dependent on those leaders and colleagues also stepping up and doing what they need to do, but do those with disabilities have any new responsibilities themselves or are there ways that they can look to better take advantage of changing workplaces?

Abbey Dalton:

I wouldn’t necessarily say that people with disabilities have new responsibilities. I think they’ve always had these responsibilities in relation to educating others. I think it’s definitely important that disabled lawyers are open and receptive to the needs of their colleagues and leaders, noting that for a lot of them, it is probably their first long-term interaction with a disabled person, in many cases. I think it’s equally as important not to put the onus on the disabled person to do all the educating though, because it’s often the case that a disabled person is doing the educating all day, every day.

So I think as Nat and Ella have outlined, there are definitely many steps that colleagues and leaders can take, and one of those steps is educating themselves, doing the research, being attentive to what their disabled colleague’s needs are, and in turn, there’s definitely a responsibility for the disabled colleague to be open to engaging with colleagues who are trying to be good allies and I think as much as possible, being really confident in their identity and confident in the knowledge that they do have a place in the legal profession and yeah, they’re worthy of being in an organisation and contributing just as anyone else there.