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Law schools cry foul over media's ATAR claims

NSW universities have defended their admissions procedures against reports in the Sydney Morning Herald that low-ATAR students are being admitted in high proportions to competitive degrees such as law.

user iconFelicity Nelson 29 January 2016 NewLaw
David-Dixon
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On Wednesday, SMH published a story claiming that NSW universities were admitting students with ATARs as low as 30 into courses.  

Drawing on “confidential university data”, SMH reported that a high proportion of students admitted to law did not have an ATAR score above the cut-off.

More than 90 per cent of offers for law degrees at UNSW (combined law), Macquarie University (law) and Western Sydney University (business/law) were made to students with ATARs below the cut-off, according to SMH.

The University of Sydney made 41 per cent of offers for combined law to students with ATARs below the cut-off of 99.5.

Speaking with Lawyers Weekly, UNSW Law dean Professor David Dixon (pictured) said the “shock, horror story” was flawed.

“In their enthusiasm for a story, they haven’t worked out the difference between raw ATAR and entry level,” he said.

Professor Dixon said the ‘raw’ ATAR, reported by SMH, is not the determining factor for whether students are accepted into law.

The entry level score, which is the ATAR including additional points granted by the university, is a better indicator, he explained.

These additional points are granted under schemes that take into account Aboriginality, socio-economic disadvantage and strong performance in extra-curricular activities.

Professor Dixon said the ATAR cut-off for law is high precisely because UNSW does not set quotas limiting the number of students accepted under these schemes.

He said that relying solely on ATAR scores in admission processes “would reproduce the structural disadvantages in our schools”.

Professor Dixon pointed out that the median raw ATAR of students admitted to combined law at UNSW was 98.28, only 1.42 below the cut-off.

Speaking with Lawyers Weekly, a University of Sydney spokesperson said the university provides entry into courses for disadvantaged students with ATARs below the cut-off.

“ATAR is a less reliable predictor of success for this group of potential students,” the spokesperson said.

Under these schemes, Indigenous students, mature students, elite athletes and students from disadvantaged schools are offered placements without having to meet the ATAR requirement.

Professor Stephen Bottomley, dean of the ANU College of Law, said the lack of context in media reports around ATAR cut-offs can be "confusing, at best, and misleading at worst".

He urged students to “look a little closer” at the SMH data, which refers to the cut-off ‘combined fields of study’.

“In the case of ANU, [this] includes two very different degrees – Law, which has an ATAR cut-off of 97, and Criminology, which has an ATAR cut-off of 82,” he said.

“Further, these sorts of reports often neglect to consider other factors – such as academic bonus points –which are applied to a student’s ATAR by respective universities and which can affect the perception of ATAR cut-offs over time,” he added.

ANU offers up to five additional bonus points for high achievement in demanding secondary subjects such as English, specialist maths, physics and chemistry.

Professor Bottomley said the ATAR cut-off for law has actually increased in the past five years at ANU.

He suggested the situation highlighted the controversy that surrounded the ATAR system, suggesting some universities could begin to introduce additional admission requirements for degrees such as law.

"But we are still some way from a universally recognised and comparable system that assesses and admits students on measures beyond their Year 12 rank," he said.

Professor Michael Adams, dean of Law at Western Sydney University, said most universities have a bonus scheme, which is usually a maximum of 10 points.

“We grant five points for a band 5/6 in English or Legal Studies – as both are good indicators of success in law,” he said.


Comments (14)
  • Avatar
    <p>"No-one capable of simple maths should be surprised that relatively few students come to law school with a ‘raw’ ATAR of 99.7" then what is the point of the advertised ATAR? why state it is 99.7 when the expectation is it will be lower as you have mentioned? kind of farcical imo</p>
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    <p>Blake,<br>Reputation of your alma mater can make a difference if you intend to work in one of the bigger Law firms in urban areas; these often have a selective bias towards graduates from the same University that partners also attended. However, having said that, this influence may be on the wane. Far more important is your GPA and also perhaps that you graduate from one of the more elite- highly ranked Law schools in the country. You can find out which schools have the best reputation by using Bing search or Google etc. Don't forget that you can transfer your degree if you have a good GPA as well. Also, you are able to do concurrent studies at another university for a semester or two, and have the credit points &amp; results transferred to your Newcastle program of study. You can contact the department that handles admissions at Newcastle and seek further advice from them. You might benefit from a semester or two at Melbourne University Law |School ranked somewhere between 5th and 8th in the world I believe ...(check that). If you are prepared to move to Melbourne for awhile you could check it out and determine if you have the ability to graduate with a high GPA there. My best advice: if Melbourne will allow concurrent studies and Newcastle Law approves, then do at least a unit there to test the waters. If either Law school refuses, then do a commerce Unit or two at Melbourne instead. Some Law schools do not allow concurrent studies though . Individual unit concurrent studies- NOT degree concurrent studies. There is a big difference. Many students undertake concurrent studies from all over Australia. You can also go overseas on exchange with partner universities of NewcastleU.</p>
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    <p>Good luck finding a job - you'll need it. And don't bother mentioning John Stuart Mill or personal freedoms at job interviews - they won't be interested. You don't need to pay a university to study whatever you like.</p>
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    <p>It seems that not many of these other factors really counts towards whether someone is going to be any good at law. I understand the concession for disadvantaged people. I find it misleading to also say that there is not much difference between 98.28 and 99.7. That's a massive difference in terms of actual performance, as I'm sure David you'll understand that the difference in raw mark terms vs say 2 people who got 58.28 and 59.7.</p>
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    <p>A further thought for the university law schools to ponder - in the US and EU, "entry level" school leaver "apprenticeships" are being encouraged by governments (but not by our governments - so far). Obviously, those with the best ATAR-equivalent marks are considered. The largest global law firms have already been doing apprenticeships for the past couple of years. Law degrees are already irrelevant. Non-degree law studies merely supplement highly focused business specialisation - which means it is inevitable that 95% of law schools will close as there will be no demand for the type of degrees presently offered in Australia. No-one will be employing law graduates any more. Why bother ? They're too expensive for clients to subsidise, know nothing, require training and have unrealistic expectations. Perhaps Lawyers Weekly should be starting up a 'school leavers' section - that's where the action is. The universities have (mostly) had their day.</p>
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    <p>I have seen evidence of a GPA cut off of 4, where a student (or students, not sure how many), transferred from their original degree (eg a BA) into their law degree (not giving name of the university, it is not UNSW)....that's a pass average for entry into a law degree via internal transfer. (Good for uni revenue?)</p>
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    <p>Well said Professor.<br>ATAR scores while useful provide little utility in the wider context of academic pursuits. The university I attended selected from a broad range of skill sets including ATARs but admitted students who didn’t even complete the HSC. 40% of successful applicants drop out from law within two years, there’s an equal mix of multi-skilled students and high ATAR achievers who left.</p><p>Interestingly the successful students who completed the LLB had mediocre or average ATAR score and went on to work in law. From my year, there were two standout examples of how little ATAR impacts on academic outcomes—one guy a former pest-controller didn’t finish school another a fun-park ride operator who failed high school both employed by the top five law firms in the country.</p><p>It’s a fact, university academics manage-out the “underperformers” regardless of ATAR scores. If you can’t maintain a reasonable GPA you’re booted out, it’s that simple. The only measure of academic success be it law or humanities is your GPA everything else is just statistics. To discriminate against individuals who come from non-privileged backgrounds by ATAR is nothing short of medieval witch-hunt.</p><p> Law academics especially are some of the most intelligent people in the country my crim professor was a retired from the supreme court, a couple of others authored books about the Australian Constitution, Contracts Law, and advised government departments on proposed legislation. Do you think these people just tick and flick exam results because there’s pressure to pass students?</p><p>Think of it like this do want Chris Pine or another politician regulating your academic future or a retired court judge?</p>
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    <p>Personal liberty 101 articulated by John Stuart Mills in 1789. <br> "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others." Obviously you missed the semester that discussed the notion of personal freedoms people enjoy in free society.<br>Accordingly, unless studying any topic "harms" another individual there's nothing you can say or do to stop it.</p>
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    <p>This question is open up to anyone:</p><p>How much of an influence does a University's reputation play when employers are selecting candidates? I'm gearing my studies towards commercial/corporate law. I'm currently studying a bachelor of law and a bachelor commerce with a major in finance. I'm also undertaking a language course for Mandarin (Chinese). My GPA is roughly sitting at 6.7 and i'm entering my second year of studies, (first year of law, second year of commerce) so it's not too late to change universities if prestige matters a terrible lot.</p><p>I'm currently studying at The University of Newcastle. One advantage this university has to offer is upon completion I will be automatically admitted as a solicitor as the college of law is incorporated into our degrees. I am also aware of the over supply of law graduates in the market, but my passion for the law will not allow me to study something else (If that doesn't say commitment i don't know what will).</p><p>I've recently discharged from the Australian Army (2014) and never thought i'd be at university to be completely honest, so I don't know a huge lot about individual universities. But i've been told that the best universities (for law) are The University of Sydney and The University of New South wales. Would a degree from here place me in high regards in an employer's eyes?</p><p>Is there any advice ANYONE has to offer to help me separate myself from the vast oversupply of law graduates? My careers advisor is so heavily bias and literally tells me "graduating a qualified solicitor out of law school is enough." Now, I don't want to garnish any sympathy, but i've been raised through an orphanage most of my life and I don't really know anyone that I could ask these questions too without having a huge bias.</p><p>I've tried emailing law firms, calling law firms and even sent a letter at one stage! But I assume that only being 20 years old and only commencing first year studies of law, i'm not worth a response. So now i'm resorting to asking questions on Lawyer's weekly.. great.</p><p>I get told not to worry until 3rd year (at the earliest) about employment opportunities. But if i'm racking up $70k+ debt, I'm gonna be worrying straight away.</p><p>Any advice at all would be fantastic, thanks!</p><p>-Blake</p>
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    <p>question for david dixon. why allow cut offs of 99.7 to be published then? you can't be serious that performance in high school legal studies is any sort of indicator of performance in legal profession? not a credible reason for free bonus points. please publish on this forum the lowest 20 raw scores for students that received offers for this year and each of the prior three years. thank you. </p>
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